Some Christians wonder, “Why should I get involved in debates or conversations with non-believers regarding abortion and other moral issues?” The simple answer to that question is that in today’s America, those kinds of conversations are not mere policy or political debates. They are witnessing opportunities.
When I say they are witnessing opportunities, I don’t mean that they are just opportunities for Christians to share biblical beliefs with non-believers. It is that, but you need to realize that these are also cases where the non-believers are sharing a witness of their beliefs to you, and are trying to convince you that their beliefs are right and that yours are wrong. This perspective is not one that most Christians generally recognize. Most see these kinds of interactions as nothing more than political arguments that only cause division.
Those who are pro-abortion, however, don’t view it that way. They don’t generally recognize it as a tenet of their religious faith, of course, but it actually is exactly that. As a Christian, if you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the faith of the person who holds that position and it is going to be very difficult for you to express your Christian faith to them in a way they will be able to understand. The culture war in today’s America is a religious war, and the only way to win is to change hearts and minds – which means that someone is going to have to be converted to a different set of beliefs.
That “someone” should not be Christians. We need to be equipped to deal with people who hold these naturalistic beliefs so that we can effectively share the good news of the gospel with them. To do this, we need to reimagine how we do evangelism – indeed, all of our Christian discipleship training.
Recently I was on Facebook and came across the above meme. It seems that one of my Facebook friends had posted it on his page and, because I am connected to him, it showed up on mine. As I read it, I recognized that none of the points made in the meme were true. Indeed, these are some of the foundational beliefs of this person’s naturalistic religion that he was trying to share as a witness of his faith. So, I spoke up and wrote some counter points. From that, many of his pro-abortion friends came out of the woodwork to attack my position. I then took the opportunity to engage those people as a means not only of sharing a biblical worldview perspective on this important topic, but also to share a witness for Christ with them, as well.
With that explanation, below is the conversation.
[Note: Remember, this is a Facebook discussion, so sometimes the conversation gets a little bit uneven. It took place over the course of better than a week, and people were going in and out of the discussion based on their own schedules. There are places where someone (including myself) will be out of the conversation for a while, then later reenter and address posts that were made previously. That is to be completely expected.
Additionally, you will note as you read that there are places where one conversation ends and another begins. These represent different strings and thus different conversations. There were also some other threads in this conversation that were not included because they did not involve me.
In this case, there were also some people who engaged the conversation, then, when they didn’t like the way it was going, actually dropped out and deleted their comments. Because of that, there are some places where my reply remains but the original comments are not present. In those cases, you are able to get some insights into the original comments based on the replies.]
Freddy Davis
HERE’S WHAT PRO-ABORTION PEOPLE DON’T GET:
Every abortion is the murder of an innocent pre-born human being.
People who are “pro-choice” ARE pro-abortion.
The “choice” to abort is a choice to murder an innocent pre-born human being.
There is such a thing as outlawing murder.
What it boils down to is choosing life over killing innocent life.
[Note: This was a point by point refutation of the meme.]
RWE
Freddy Davis What about the woman’s life? When a woman chooses to carry to term, she is putting HER life at risk. She is putting her health at risk. Is the sole purpose of a woman to risk her life to give a man a child he doesn’t even want? You aren’t pro-life, you are pro-forced birth. If you were really pro-life, you’d petition your legislators to make a law mandating vasectomies for all men in order to prevent abortions.
Freddy Davis
That is a totally ludicrous argument. I guess you think humans should not reproduce? If that is your thinking, perhaps women should not engage in behavior that potentially would put their life at risk. I can’t believe you would put forth an argument like that.
MP
Freddy Davis Freddy, dear heart, if all men would use contraception or get vasectomies or man up and care for a child they’ve played half the role of making….we wouldn’t be having this discussion. When MEN take full responsibility for their contribution to the problem, then let’s chat. Until then…….
Freddy Davis
MP – Bless your heart, that’s rich. Maybe both men and women should not be making babies they don’t plan to care for. The babies don’t have any choice in whether or not they are made, and it is immoral to execute them because of the indiscretions of irresponsible adults. The problem is not the babies, it is the adults that are not willing to take responsibility for their own actions. You seem to be arguing that the murder of innocent babies is no big deal.
JF
Freddy Davis – I think you have been very fortunate you and any females in your life have never been in the position to have to make such a decision. And obviously you have always been responsible with birth control. Just wish there were more people like you. If there were, we wouldn’t have to have this conversation. I get the impression you believe women are out there just unloading unwanted pregnancies just for the hell of it, ain’t no big deal and with no impact on them physically or emotionally. Again, you are so fortunate to have never had to walk that walk….count your blessings.
Freddy Davis
JF – We were never able to have our own children and adopted. But that is totally beside the point. The question is, “What decision is there to make?” The decision is to kill a baby or not to kill a baby.
JF
So it doesn’t matter the health of the mother or medical advise? Plus I think your first sentence explains clearly why your have this point of view. You were fortunate someone opted, hopefully without regret, to take a pregnancy to term and then to give that child up for another couple to raise. Just try looking at the entire picture of pregnancy for those who were not so fortunate. Not all pregnancies that are terminated are unwanted ones.
Freddy Davis
JF – You seem to be missing the point. There are EXTREMELY few cases where abortion is done to save the life of the mother. There are virtually always alternatives. Set that up against the just under 1 million abortions per year (in the US alone) and the nearly 62 million total since 1973. Your argument is nearly meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Also, the first sentence of my last post does not explain my point of view. I firmly believe in the sanctity of human life and, by conviction, believe the murder of innocent babies by abortion is a moral abomination. Perhaps “not all pregnancies that are terminated are unwanted ones” — perhaps only 99.9999999 percent.
MP
Freddy Davis – when all men are responsible birth control users or have vasectomies and man up to care for all the babies they make…..then let’s talk.
MP
Freddy Davis – oh hell no….do not put words in my mouth. Thus far I’ve not chimed in on the “murder of innocent babies.”
Freddy Davis
MP – Birth control has nothing to do with whether or not a person makes a decision to murder another person. Your argument is meaningless.
Not chimed in on the murder of innocent babies? What do you think abortion is?
CH
Freddy Davis – Just curious…..at what point does an after born person become less than innocent? In other words, at what point is it okay to make a little being go hungry and cold and unloved and uncared for? At what point is it okay for men to decide, when they are not held accountable for preventing unwanted pregnancy, nor for the proper care of that innocent pre-human? If you believe in God and life after death, then there is also life before birth….it’s just in spirit form. So, there’s no harm in telling a pre-human, that it’s better for them to stay in spirit form, instead of coming into human form at this time. That “innocent” adjective is purely subjective, used to pull heart strings. No human is innocent. They are born to sin.
Freddy Davis
CH – Your description is factually wrong – both spiritually and scientifically.
Scientifically, a baby is an actual human being from the moment of its conception. It is a human being (and not some other creature), is a living organism, and has its own DNA that is distinct from its mother and father. Killing it is killing a living human being that has done nothing to deserve the death penalty. That is not a subjective argument.
Theologically you are also wrong. A preborn baby is not merely a spirit. It is a spiritual being (as are all humans) but physically it is a physical human being at a particular stage of development. And the fact that we are born in sin (not born to sin), is not a legitimate reason for killing someone. Using your reasoning, we should just kill everyone and get rid of sin altogether.
The other arguments you have thrown in are completely superfluous and full of hypotheticals and unexplained assumptions that do not necessarily lead to the conclusions you are trying to draw.
I’m sorry, but your arguments (all of them) are only logical based on a relativistic morality that someone makes up to suit their own desires – and it comes nowhere close to biblical teachings.
PDH
Freddy Davis and CH – On the abortion issue: The Bible is unclear on the question. The one God knew us before birth. Yet what does knew mean. Of course God knew us, but that does not require even a zygote. Since God is theoretically all knowing, God’s knowledge exceeds our mere selves as most of us understand.
Then, on another hand, there is the breath of LIFE. Some view this to mean that we are not human until “the breath of life.” In Torah, abortion is not considered wrong or sinful.
There is a passage many use. If a man during an altercation causes a woman to abort, it is not considered murder in any degree. Rather it is an economic settlement. Certainly if this incident was murder to any degree, the “punishment ” would have been far more severe.
PDH
I think it was Jean Sarte who observed that the murder of the innocents (the young children) must have weighed heavily on Jesus. Because if not for Jesus, these children may have had full lives. Could have enjoyed life. “Chose life.”
Jesus on some level contributed to the murder of the innocents. How did Jesus resolve the issue? Or perhaps he never resolved it.
PDH
This civil (mostly) is how Jesus would have conducted himself.
Jesus did not “lose it.”
PDH
Do you wear a mask? No?
Then you are anti-human.
JD
Freddy Davis – Where do you stand on abortion after a rape, or incest, or to save a mother’s life?
Freddy Davis
PDH – There are a lot of issues that the Bible doesn’t speak to directly, but we are able to have direction based on the underlying biblical principles. The Bible doesn’t say don’t smoke cigarettes, but the principle of stewardship of our bodies informs us that it is not a good practice for a Christian. I could go on and on with examples like that. The problem with your statements is that you are making arguments that come from a philosophical stream that is contrary to the teachings of the Bible. I’m really curious as to your authority source and why you think that it represents the truth. Your attempt to cherry pick Bible passages and interpret them based on some non-biblical principle is simply not a valid hermeneutic. You have misrepresented both God and the Bible.
I wear a mask where I am supposed to wear a mask, but I am at a loss to understand what that has to do with anything in this discussion. But whether I do or not also has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I am pro or anti human. There are all kinds of reasons a person might go one way or another with the mask thing that has nothing to do with their stance on humanity. Your conclusion on that topic is an attempt to judge a person’s motives without any ability whatsoever to know what is in their heart. That was a rather meaningless statement, don’t you think?
PDH
Decades ago on the floor of the Florida Senate was an interesting debate.
The argument went if a woman had another man’s child, then by law, she would be required to disclose this to her husband. Besides the issue of the mother now being at risk of execution…….
Senator Pat Frank said boys will be boys. But the adulterous man should be required to disclose to his wife his adulterous behavior and if any children born or pregnancies.
In our patriarchal culture, the male Senators laughed at the notion. I remember seeing Senator Pat Thomas disregarding the point. When session was over that day, I discussed the matter with Senator Thomas while on the floor.
I had really pissed off Senator Dempsey Barron about 1982 redistricting. Senator Thomas knew Senator Barron quite well. He saw Barron coming toward me with a clenched fist. Barron was about to punch me. Thomas intervened, got between us, preventing a wack at me.
Freddy Davis
JD – Where do you stand on the murder of innocent babies?
Freddy Davis
PDH – Congratulations on not getting punched by Sen. Barron. ??
PDH
JF and Freddy Davis – There are cases of possible or probable death or severe injury to the prospective mother. By minimizing this, one is not showing compassion and love.
PDH
Within Judaism, the age of twelve is considered when one is responsible for your sins.
Freddy Davis
There are cases of possible or probable death or severe injury to the baby EVERY TIME an abortion is performed – nearly one million times per year in the US alone.
And why am I concerned with the traditions of Judaism?
RWE
Freddy Davis – EVERY abortion saves the life of the mother. Not all life-threatening conditions, like heart failure, stroke, or hemorrhage, manifest symptoms prior to labor and delivery.
CH
Freddy Davis – Your whole premise is based on believing that the Bible is the only truth. Not everyone follows the Bible or Christianity as their spiritual guideline. The rest is pretty much exaggeration to suit your viewpoint.
JD
Freddy Davis – I don’t think a woman should have to go through a pregnancy after rape or incest.
TH
Freddy Davis – do you support Capital Punishment? The right to bear arms and kill someone for coming into your property? Just wondering what the difference is…
MP
Freddy Davis – if everyone took responsibility for contraception the numbers of terminations would be dramatically less…and then real conversations can take place. Using Colorado as an example….they dropped abortion by 62% by offering real and honest sex education, provided accessibility to medical care and provided free birth control. Magic. When the problem is addressed rationally and inclusively, the numbers drop and the health of the woman is not threatened. Countries that traditionally offer terminations legally and reasonably, see abortion rates decline. Let’s attack the issue rationally and logically and lessen the need for abortion.
MP
PDH – the Torah also honors the power and wisdom of women…..the Bible eliminates nearly all acknowledgment of the Devine feminine except for a brief passage in Proverbs regarding Sophia…and her reminder of her presence at the beginning….”I saw what you did in the darkness” —-Sophia, the mother of god.
Perhaps if the Devine feminine had not been erased from Christianity, things would be different.
SJ
Freddy Davis – if you support the Trump agenda you have NO HIGH GROUND TO STAND ON. SO STFU.
Freddy Davis
RWE – That is just a very weird comment.
Freddy Davis
CH – Yes, my premise is based on the Bible. And what is yours based upon? I guess one that sees the murder of innocent babies as okay?
Freddy Davis
JD – So, just kill the baby.
Freddy Davis
TH – The difference is found in the word “innocent.”
Freddy Davis
MP – So simply reducing the number of babies you murder makes everything okay?
Freddy Davis
SJ – I support the biblical agenda. What agenda do you support?
RH
Freddy Davis – This country was not founded on the biblical agenda. It was founded in spite of it. Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. The people who wrote the constitution made sure to separate religion from the government, because they knew how destructive religious conflicts were (and are), and making sure that the government and its laws were secular was a way to ensure peace and stability. Arguing that God’s law should be supreme is un-American.
Freddy Davis
You don’t seem to realize that there is no such thing as a non-religious point of view. What was separated was sectarianism and government, not values and government. All values come from some faith position. All you are doing is proposing changing the values that the founding was established upon with another set. Your conclusion is simply false.
RWE
Freddy Davis – You are saying my claim that every abortion saves the life of the mother is weird. To you, preventing risk of dying in childbirth by having an abortion is weird. That is, saving the life of a woman is weird. I reiterate—some life-threatening conditions do not occur until labor and delivery, so safety cannot be assured. I recently read of a study on abortion in which the subject group was pregnant women. There were 1100 women in the study. Two—TWO OF ELEVEN HUNDRED—died in childbirth. So, yes, every abortion saves the life of the mother.
Freddy Davis
RWE – No, that you would be arguing that procreation is a threat to life. Perhaps we should go around destroying all cars because they are one of the leading causes of death every year in America. No one should drive or ride in a car, right?
RWE
Freddy Davis – Another fallacious argument.
Freddy Davis
RWE – Actually it is right on point. If you really believe that, perhaps you should be fighting hard to convince people that they should be completely celibate. After all, having sexual relations has the potential to put a woman’s life in danger.
CH
Freddy Davis – There goes your exaggeration again. If you consider that murder, then taking any life is murder. Including war. But you won’t talk about that, will you? Killing is killing, whether you call it murder or self-defense. It’s taking a life.
RWE
Freddy Davis – That isn’t necessary nor is it realistic. Priests prove men have difficulty remaining celibate. Sexual reproduction is a natural biological process the evolution of which caused an explosion of species. Humans have developed the means of preventing pregnancy and childbirth when necessary or desired. The reproductive process can be interrupted at any point in the process from start to finish and it is, from failure of fertilization, or implantation to spontaneous abortion and stillbirth. I see no difference in the brain commanding the interruption based on concerns the mother may have for her current ability to raise a child and the uteruses choice to expel a fetus for whatever reason the uterus may have. The healthiest way is to prevent conception and if we, as a society prefer prevention to abortion (I sure do), then means like vasectomies for all men would be very effective in achieving that goal.
Freddy Davis
CH – Perhaps you don’t know the definition of murder and how that is different from other kinds of killing.
MP
Freddy Davis – you are speaking on behalf of a belief system that has murdered millions….that has condoned the abuse of young men and girls for centuries….that supports an expanded population with nary a care as to how to care for them. You haven’t a foundation to speak from to belittle and sentence others.
RWE
Freddy Davis – LOL you just screwed yourself. If not all killing is murder and some killing is justifiable, then terminating a pregnancy can be justified.
MP
RWE – I disagree. I am pro-choice but to say every abortion saves the life of the mother is just false.
MP
Freddy Davis – a fetus is only considered a baby after it is born.
RWE
MP – Yes, as definitively as I stated it, based on statistics, it is not a supportable claim. But I maintain that the possibility of maternal mortality is present in every pregnancy and we know what the odds are. The US has the HIGHEST of maternal mortality rates of all developed nations and occurs most often in the pregnancies and deliveries of disadvantaged mothers. So, yes, there is a risk.
Freddy Davis
MP – The fact that certain people in history have acted in ways that contradict the teachings of Christianity does not discredit the actual teachings of the faith. Your assertion is false.
Freddy Davis
RWE – Some killing may be justified, but not ever the killing of innocents. Your argument is false.
Of course there is the possibility of maternal mortality in childbirth. And there is the possibility of mortality when someone has toenail surgery.
Freddy Davis
MP – That is a false statement. It is a baby at conception. It is living, it is human, and it has its own unique DNA. The stage of development does not define its humanity.
RWE
Freddy Davis – The fetus is dependent on the mother so it is not an independent organism—it is a parasite as its provides no benefit to the body of the mother.
RWE
Freddy Davis – And you are now arguing semantics—labels for fetal development in all mammals and other species—were assigned long ago. “Baby” is a layman’s term.
RWE
Freddy Davis – Do humans have tails and gills? I’ve never seen a born baby (and I have attended the births of 8 infants) with a tail or gills, but we do have them as developing fetuses. So if humans are defined as creatures lacking those physical features, then fetuses are not human—or not yet fully human.
Freddy Davis
RWE – No one said it is independent in the sense you are talking about (though it is silly to call it a parasite). It is, however, a separate human being.
Baby may be a layman’s term based on your naturalistic presuppositions, but that does not change the fact that it is a living human being and killing it is murder. Your comments about tails and gills are meaningless. Humans are not defined by any kinds of particular features, they are human because they are conceived by humans.
SJ
Freddy Davis – you think you do, but you don’t.
RH
Freddy Davis – That’s false. There are indeed no religious points of view and not all ethnics and/or morals come from religion either. Besides. Why is your religion superior to mine?
SJ
Freddy Davis – pretending you give a tinker’s damn about human life is a joke. You care no more about life, born or unborn, than your true master, Trump. And invoking the name of Jesus just makes Him sad. You forfeited any moral high ground you may have had in your hypocritical support of Trump. Period. Your words carry no weight. Honestly, pack up and go home.
PDH
What is the biblical agenda?
Agendas is more accurate.
PDH
What is / are. the definitions for human?
WARNING: This is a tricky question question.
Freddy Davis
SJ – Think I do what?
I don’t recall there being ANY talk of politics in this entire discussion. You are the one who has just interjected politics. And you have no idea about my personal motivations. Your comment is completely off base.
Freddy Davis
PDH – The Bible was written as a revelation of God, so the agenda is to know him in a personal relationship.
Not tricky at all. Human beings are persons created in the image of God.
PDH
Freddy Davis – Given the high incidence of abortion, some of the women in this discussion likely have had abortions. Therefore you are addressing some women who have made the most difficult decision in their lives.
Freddy Davis
PDH – Your point being?
SJ
Freddy Davis – it’s a political topic. Your personal motive is clearly to portray Jesus and His gospel in a light most unfavorable to moving souls to salvation. You follow a false god. Dig a little deeper into scripture to see what usually happens to those who serve a false God. One doesn’t have to be a scholar to see you are acting as a wolf in sheep’s clothing, teaching heresy to those with itching ears. You’re stuck on an issue that has nothing to do with the sanctity of life so much as command and control over others. You could instead try letting God work for good through you, and leave the rest up to Him to sort out. But I reiterate, you have no moral standing as long as you support the immoral.
PDH
Freddy Davis – EVERYONE cherry-picks. There are numerous contradictions. Some small. Some large.
There is no significance where I derive my thoughts, ideas, facts.
In Christianity as I understand it, there are facts, and there are different facts.
This is not a surprise. As book (books) that was written by different authors over the course of centuries; and then most being over two thousand years old, some over three thousand years old…… Meanings are going to be multiple / lost / vague. / confusing / unknown. / etc.
Why did God stop “making” scripture over two thousand years ago? In particular the past four hundred years? Or since the Age of Reason? Or the age of dehumanization due to human beings being reduced to cogs in a wheels of industry? Or human artificial insemination? Or Terrie Schiavo? Or Adolph Hitler’ and the Nazis?
PDH
It is entirely consistent to claim that the biblical vision of Jewish good behavior equaling prosperity. And bad behavior equaling punishment, thus meaning every catastrophe in Jewish history is punishment. The prophets` central theme is just that. This is precisely how Christians and Jewish interpret the Great Babylonia Exile of 586 / 587 BCE, the destructions of Jerusa OkidaJerusalem and he Templ, pogroms, other types of catastrophes…… a And this brings us to the most demonic political and theological movement in human history: Adolph Hitler and the Nazis. God was using these human demons to punish well over six million Jewish. In a multiplicity of ways, including the most dehumanizing in world history.
That being the case, God became demonic. God became unworthy of worship or respect. God became obscene. God became Satan. The most radical transformation in human history.
PDH
My apologies for the typos. I neglected to proofread.
PDH
And we live in the aftermath: 2 / 3 of European Jews murdered, includes by millions of Christians. Over 1 / 3 of the worldwide Jewish population. Including the most righteous in the world: Poland. Some 9 / 10s of the Rabbis of the pre-Holocaust world came from Poland. The most Jewish deaths came from Poland.
PDH
Don’t believe me? I can provide you with hundreds, thousands of well documented scholarly books and scholarly articles. This is my specialty in my life. For some fifty years. No other profound questions are left.
PDH
Ok, exaggeration.
Abortion provides many questions too.
And why is there something, rather than nothingness? No-thing-ness.
Besides The Holocaust, The Carastrophe, The Shoah, why is there even the notion of God?
One cannot simply say only humans are responsible. According to the Bible, God is the Author of History. Ultimately history is shaped and determined by God. Making God responsible for using the most demonic movement in human history, Adolph Hitler and the Nazis, to commit the most demonic crimes in human history.
May we have mercy upon that God? May we be able to forgive God? Should that God be held accountable? By the Bible’s logic, God should be stoned to death. The Death of God. The death of all Creation. The Death of History.
Freddy Davis
SJ – It’s political to you, but virtually every moral issue is a political issue to those who hold a naturalistic worldview. But who made you God to tell me what my motives are? I didn’t realize you had that kind of power. BTW, you have totally missed the mark, which means that the one following false teachings is you. Perhaps you need to look in the mirror.
SV
Freddy Davis – if we made every so called man actually support the children he sired, that would be a start. Many sowing seeds. Few men tending the crops.
Freddy Davis
PDH – Not everyone cherry picks – only those who operate using wrong hermeneutical principles. The reason God quit revealing Scripture is because he completed the purpose for which he made the revelation. When Christ died on the cross, the sin problem was taken care of. You seem to have the same problem that is being exhibited by many others in this conversation – you do not recognize the main thing to be the main thing. When you begin to define salvation in terms of human actions, you have left biblical theology and moved into something else.
Freddy Davis
ML – Besides your wrong theology, you have said some very unkind things. We were not able to have children, but I do have an adopted son. We are truly blessed.
Human beings are physical creatures with a spiritual core. The image of God part has to do with the spiritual. That does not mean we are parts with God. I have no idea where you get that kind of theology, but it is not from the Bible. If you yourself actually believe that, then perhaps you would like to explain why you think it is true. If not, then I am wondering why you tried to impose that on me since it is not what I believe. Is that the only option you are able to recognize? Perhaps you would be well served to actually read the Bible to see what is actually written there.
(ML seems to have not wanted to respond to my response and deleted his post. You are able to get a sense of what he wrote by my response.)
Freddy Davis
PDH – What is obscene is you attributing the holocaust to God. The actions of Hitler run in diametrically the opposite direction from what is taught in the Bible. And your theory about God using that to punish the Jews is just that – a theory – and a very unbiblical one at that. The fact that God revealed to some of the prophets how he used others in Old Testament times to bring judgment on his people does not give you the right, or the ability, to transfer that to more modern situations. Do you understand the purpose of the judgments – you know, what God was trying to accomplish in them? It seems you don’t. You simply don’t know what you have asserted – unless, of course, you are telling me that God has made you one of his prophets.
I don’t know whether you realize it or not, but Judaism is not a monolith. There are numerous Jewish groups that hold to very different theological positions, most of them not even developed until a few centuries ago. Your argument about how Jews interpret the Bible is very tenuous. But beyond that, it doesn’t even matter what “typical Jewish people” in modern times might believe. What is important is what is actually taught in the biblical text itself. Rather than referring me to various “scholarly articles,” maybe you should read the biblical text itself. In the course of my own research, I have also read scores of books and articles – this field is, of course, my profession. Certainly you are aware that there are entire theologies that are not based on biblical Theism at all, but are essentially naturalistic beliefs dressed up in theological language (liberation theology, postmodern theology, existential theology, historical criticism, and on and on). In fact, there are entire denominations that are dominated by some of these theological streams . None of these theologies base their teachings on the biblical text, and there are scores of articles and books written based on these false beliefs. If these are the articles you want to refer me to, no need. What they teach is simply not true, and certainly does not reflect what is actually written in the Bible.
SJ
Freddy Davis – and who made you God to decide what a woman can or can’t do in terms of her own health? I go back to my original statement. You haven’t denied supporting Trump, and by any gospel measure you’re in league with Satan, or at least not with any Christian principles taught in the NT. You have no moral high ground. Quit trying to claim it. You forfeited that when you opted to support someone without a moral compass. So STFU, will ya?
Freddy Davis
SJ – Are you serious? Are you really determined to make this a political matter rather than a moral one? Have you checked the moral background of Biden? I don’t think you have any room to be pointing fingers.
That aside, I am not the one who wrote the Bible. The sanctity of human life is a bedrock biblical principle. God does not approve of people, no matter who they are, deciding to destroy innocent human life.
Finally, Christian salvation is not a matter of political policies. Christ specifically came to earth to provide the possibility of eternal life to those who receive him into their life. The entire Bible points to that, and the New Testament specifically spells it out. If that is not your priority, then it is you who are not in sync with the teachings of the Bible, not me. You might do well to actually read the entire New Testament to see what it says about that.
Freddy Davis
TH – I have actually dealt with most of the things you have mentioned already. Maybe you should take the time to read what has already been written before getting on your high horse.
But in general, I will tell you what I just told SJ. Christian salvation is not a matter of political policies. Christ specifically came to earth to provide the possibility of eternal life to those who receive him into their life. The entire Bible points to that, and the New Testament specifically spells it out. If you are wanting to make political policy the means of salvation in Christian theology, you are going to have to do it without depending on the Bible for your authority source. You are going to have to make it up based on your own personal opinion. Policy is an expression of one’s faith, not its source. Your questions do not relate in any way to the central revelation God provided in the Bible.
(TH was a part of this conversation but deleted his posts, so all of the references to this person relate to those deleted posts. You are still able to discern much of what he said based on my responses.)
PDH
Freddy Davis – Every social or theological issue in the Bible IS a political issue.
Why else would the prophets had said such?
PDH
Freddy Davis – Be honest.
We all cherry pick.
We’re all human. That means, in part, that we cherry pick.
To claim otherwise is to be as dishonest as Trump.
Freddy Davis
TH – So considering other viewpoints is justification for murdering babies?
I think it is pretty rich for you to tell me to consider other people’s views when you and virtually everyone else in this conversation is on the other side asserting that your beliefs are right and that I am wrong. I have not attempted to belittle anyone, I have only expressed the biblical teachings about the sanctity of human life. On the other hand, look at your last post. Who is doing the belittling?
And what do you base your opinion upon that a preborn baby is not human? It is the product of human beings, it is living, and it has its own unique DNA. Are you calling it non-human simply because of its stage of development? Do you have some scientific basis for that point of view? You have picked a philosophical position and have attempted to interpret the Bible through it rather than exegeting the Bible to see what it says. Based on what you have said, political policy is your bottom line. (And your comments about wanting children to go hungry and not have medical care, or get a good education is ludicrous.) You have no idea what you are even talking about.
PDH
Freddy Davis – Your understanding of Judaism is partly correct. And partly not.
For the Judaism of Jesus’s time and for most of Judaism since, includes the Talmud, Midrash, and other texts. This is still true for some Jews today, like (I think) the Hasidim, and definitely other Orthodox. Then there is the Kabbalah.
For most Jew’s today, they are a-religious, non-religious, anti-religious, Conservative, Reconstructionists, or Reformed.
PDH
Freddy Davis – Are you a Fundamentalist or Literalist?
Freddy Davis
PDH – Every social and theological position can have a political expression, but are not in and of themselves political. You are simply wrong on that point.
I think I also already addressed your “cherry-picking” comment. That’s what people do who don’t use improper hermeneutics – which a lot of folks in this conversation have done. I will not call you dishonest as you have done to me, as I honestly believe you believe what you are saying. I will say, though, that your hermeneutic is sorely lacking regarding the Bible.
SJ
Freddy Davis – you can stop answering. I don’t hear hypocrites.
BAC
Freddy Davis – You don’t hear well? LET ME TRY SHOUTING: NO ONE IS PRO ABORTION.
PDH
Freddy Davis – Once again, are you a Fundamentist or Literalist?
PDH
EVERYTHING IS POLITICAL.
PDH
TH – Freddy Davis is, the best I can ascertain, a Trumpette. A Trump devotee. A Trump worshipper.
He evades answers that he deliberately does not desire to honestly answer.
PDH
Freddy Davis – The biblical prophets were the most political critics.
NM
Sperm doesnt make an egg a person….get over your shit
SLT
Freddy Davis – the Bible writes that the “breath of life” happens at birth, and another reference is at the quickening (viability). Miscarriages and early deaths happened so often in the Biblical times and for 1000 years after, babies were not even named until after their first birthday. Y’alljust completely made up this concept of inception as the “lifes beginning.” Just made it up. Not in the Bible.
JED
Freddy Davis – then you be prepared to take in all those whose Mothers can’t feed them, and those who were so malformed they are born in pain and don’t live long, and those whose mothers died.
JED
SLT – thank you!
PDH
Freddy Davis – The issue of high motality rates and thus not naming until some reasonable prospect of survival is a quite interesting question. And the mortality rates for children of all ages was high.
A demonstration of God’s abiding love.
DS
Come on, guys, stop harassing poor lil’ Freddy!! His Invisible Sky Daddy says abortion is naughty, so we should all just shut up and let Freddy and his friends decide what’s right and what’s not for all of us!! XD
AHO
SV – including the ones that are created because of affairs.
Freddy Davis
SJ – If you don’t want me to answer, then don’t make comments to me. I’m sorry that you are unable to handle the arguments.
Freddy Davis
BAC – That is simply false on its face. Plenty of people are pro-abortion. In fact, there are thousands of people who make millions of dollars promoting it.
Freddy Davis
PDH – There are various ways people define fundamentalism and literalism. Would you be more specific as to what you mean? If you are talking about how I interpret the biblical text, I do it based on the nature of the various texts themselves.
Freddy Davis
PDH – For a Naturalist, everything is political. For a Theist, that is factually incorrect.
Freddy Davis
PDH – Just because you don’t like my answers does not mean that I have avoided answering them. Your problem is that you are so absorbed in your own worldview perspective that you are unable to understand the meaning of what I am saying based on a different worldview paradigm. For you, for whatever reason, Trump is in your head. I have not said anything about him and have not talked politics at all. Perhaps you would do well to do a little study on the various worldview possibilities
Freddy Davis
PDH – Your comment about the prophets (meaning the Old Testament prophets I am assuming), is only a partial truth. They dealt with the politics of their day, but not in the way you seem to be asserting. Their focus was not to promote any kind of political agenda, but to call the nation back to God. You don’t seem to grasp the nature of their ministry.
Freddy Davis
NM – That was a very weird comment. I never said a sperm made an egg a person. Do you even have any idea what you are saying? Because I don’t.
Freddy Davis
SLT – So I guess you are a science denier (as well as one who takes verses out of context and interprets them based on some non-biblical philosophy).
SJ
Freddy Davis – ah, the prosperity gospel raises its head at last. I comment on intelligent argument, not Trumped over bullshit.
Freddy Davis
JED – What about the other 99.99% of the murdered babies? I guess you are not concerned about them.
Freddy Davis
PDH – High mortality and naming traditions have absolutely nothing to do with the value of the human lives that are being snuffed out. Do you really think that those matters affect the morality of killing the babies?
Freddy Davis
DS – Insults are not an argument. That’s what people do when they are unable to give intelligent reasoning.
Freddy Davis
AHO – So I guess babies that are made because of immoral activity are not real human beings and it is okay to kill that class of them?
DS
Freddy, I don’t waste intelligent reasoning on zealots. You’re not arguing from a place of reason, so you won’t respond to reason. I could make the most logical case possible, but you’ll dismiss it because Invisible Sky Daddy said so.
BAC
Freddy Davis – No evidence those people are pro-abortion – OR that, providing a service at great risk to providers, they make much $$. No, you just like to troll
Freddy Davis
DS – And you are arguing from a place of reason? Really? I would love to hear you make a logical case. What is the reason you dismiss my arguments? Personal preference?
Freddy Davis
BAC – No trolling here. I have engaged this conversation very seriously. Is a put down the only argument you have?
What people are you talking about?
DS
You wanna try this? Okay.
For the vast majority of any pregnancy, the fetus is no more a person and a uterine tumor would be. It’s a clump of cells that could potentially become something else, but hasn’t. As a matter of fact, the majority of the cells that make up a zygote will be dead and gone long before the fetus is born. The vast majority of fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted naturally; about half of them fail to implant at all. Another third or so implant, but the period begins anyway, and the implanted zygote is washed away with the period flow. Are you mourning those as the deaths of children? The vast majority of sexually active people with uteruses have lost pregnancies they were never even aware of. Should they mourn those losses?
Next, let’s take the fact that Pro-Choice does not equal Pro-Abortion. Pro-Choice means that, as I am not the pregnant individual, the person who must now face a lifetime of consequences, then my opinion on what THAT PERSON chooses to do DOES NOT MATTER. It isn’t my business. Period.
Third, let’s flip this thing around for a minute. You’re not Pro-Life, you’re Pro-Birth. If you and your ilk were Pro-:Life, you would support making sure that EACH AND EVERY ONE of those children you want to see come to term is well fed, housed, well educated, happy, loved….all that. But you’re not. Your ilk are always trying to cut social programs. Many of you argue that “charity should be left to the church,” but then what would you do with the children of atheists? Muslims? Hindus? Jainists? Confucians? Jews? Most churches that DO help the poor do so with a heaping helping of guilt and proselytizing on the side.
DS
All of this, mind you, is without pulling anything out of YOUR BOOK and using it against you. So leave your book out of it and answer me logically. Thanks.
NM
Freddy Davis – no you dont…if that sperm didnt hit the egg it would have been passed.
Let women pass our sperm infected eggs safely…the mistresses of rich men will always have acess…. and poor women will always find a way…
So just decide if you want poor women to due ftom sdlfabortions or hacj back alley
Or if you want to leave wimens health decisions ti their doctor and them.
Your sperm doesnt make our egg a person.
NM
No uterus and not my doctir….you get no opinion forced birther
Freddy Davis
NM – No moral right to murder an innocent child. You get no opinion yourself.
I guess you have already decided that it is okay to kill innocent people.
Freddy Davis
DS – So you consider a preborn person to be a tumor? That’s just sad.
Pro-choice only means pro-abortion if the person has an abortion. Then it is pro-abortion. Very sad that you consider raising a child to be a bad “consequence.” Do you really think people who have sex don’t know that that is the way to produce babies?
Your pro-life vs. pro-birth argument is very weird. Of course a person who is pro-life is going to be pro-birth. That is the natural order of things. You can’t separate the two. Like two sides of the same coin.
Your social net argument is simply a red herring. Why should I (as a member of society) be responsible for the act of another person who recklessly has sex to produce a child that they don’t want? If a person does that, there are other alternatives besides killing it or feeding off the public trough. If you are so convinced that what other people do is none of your business, then why are you slicking your nose into it? And your argument related to other religions is simply silliness. You are doing nothing more than throwing uninformed mud up against the wall and hoping something sticks. Anything to justify killing innocent babies.
I wonder if you have ever heard of adoption? We adopted our son and are blessed that we were able to take in a child that was unwanted by its birth parents.
NM
Freddy Davis –
You
Arent
Everyone
Freddy Davis
NM – And I guess you are.
PDH
Freddy Davis – Given where you allegedly attended seminary, you’re a Fundamentalist. That worldview died quite some time ago.
Leonardo DaVinci. Even earlier.
You’re desperately still holding on, to nothingness.
PDH
Freddy Davis – Or to put it another way, Dead Man Walking.
NM
Freddy Davis – i am at least a mother of three and two miscarraiges…
I know where women are when they need to make that decision…
You…. have a dick…
NM
Your opinion can stay where your sperm go.
PDH
Freddy Davis – You are good at your game. For you, this is a game.
But instead of spiritual enhancement, you are not giving the glories of Jesus, your alleged Lord and Savior.
You are not feeding spiritual food. Rather you are feeding dog vomit.
Not manna.
You need spiritual food, not hermeneutics.
PDH
Freddy Davis – Literally EVERYTHING is political, most especially our most important beliefs and hopes. To continue to deny this is to continue to deny your own self.
What frightens you so much about politics? Must be fear. Why?
MB
Freddy Davis – Whether a glob of cells is a baby or a fetus or zygote is not yours to decided for everyone – it is a decision you can make for yourself but don’t decide for me. I mean, who the hell do you think you are?
Freddy Davis
NM – Your personal status has nothing to do the the morality of killing babies, and your insult does not further any kind of argument. Those are not reasons why you believe abortion is okay, they are nothing but assertions of personal opinion without anything to back them up.
BAC
Freddy Davis – M.D.’s who risk their lives and some get killed; targeted healthcare workers. Real people. Troll is not a “put down”. It is a factual description.
Freddy Davis
PDH – So I guess you have graduated to godhood and become able to know my heart and my motivation. For me, this is not a game. Before we adopted our son, his birth grandfather tried to force his birth mother to have him aborted two weeks before his birth. The sanctity of human life is very real and very personal to me. Your attempt to put me down based on my beliefs is not only poor taste, but is simply a lie.
But as for your comment about the basis of my arguments, I am the only one who has actually given spiritual (biblical) reasons for my point of view, and it is based on the teachings of Jesus, as opposed to anything you have argued. I am also the only one who has taken seriously what science has to say about it.
Do you even know what hermeneutics is? You use it every time you try to interpret the Bible (or any other book, for that matter). If you use invalid hermeneutical principles, you end up making wrong interpretations. If you interpret the Bible wrongly, you are giving poisonous spiritual food, not food that will help people grow spiritually. You can make silly comments like” we don’t need hermeneutics” till the cows come home, but what you say is meaningless unless you can demonstrate your arguments to be true. Simply insulting me and telling me I am wrong without actually backing it up is not valid argumentation.
I have said this before but you don’t seem to be able to grasp it, so let me try again. Everything is NOT political. Politics is a partisan activity. Moral and spiritual values are not political. They can have political expressions, but are not inherently political in and of themselves. You are simply wrong on that point, and continuing to say it will not make it true. I have no problem at all talking politics. In fact, I have written books on the political expression of biblical values. But the conversation in this string has not been about politics, it has been about the moral rightness or wrongness of abortion. You need to learn to discern the difference.
Freddy Davis
MB – You can try to obfuscate all you want by trying to create distinctions without meaning, but it doesn’t change the fact that a fertilized egg is an actual living human being with its own unique DNA. That is the science. I am not the one who has decided that, nature has. Instead of insulting me, perhaps you should do a little more research for yourself.
DS
Freddy, you didn’t refute a single thing I said.
First, I never said I considered a blastocyst, zygote, or fetus a tumor. I said they were no more PEOPLE than a uterine tumor was. Also, “preborn person?” That’s a strawman if ever I saw one.
Raising children IS a consequence. It is both good and bad, but if someone is young, poor, etc., it is more likely to be bad. But it’s also not the only possible consequence of a full-term pregnancy, and you have to know that.
I never said you were pro-life AND pro-birth. I said you were ONLY pro-birth. The social safety net is exactly the reason why. As I said in my previous post, if you were pro-LIFE, you would give a flying f__k if those kids wound up homeless or starved or what-have-you AFTER birth. I believe in helping others. I believe in seeing EVERYONE cared for. That’s why I believe in a social safety net. And you have purposely divorced my argument related to other religions from the context of “charity should come from the church.”
Glad you were able to adopt. Fun fact: Abortion was legal when you adopted him, and you were STILL able to adopt. So not sure how that relates.
Please do try to actually REFUTE my arguments, rather than intentionally misinterpret what I said and twist my meaning. “Pre-born person,” “innocent babies,” etc. are just misdirection. You’re assuming you’ve proven that fetuses and zygotes are any of those things, and you haven’t.
Ridiculous.
MB
Freddy Davis – That is your opinion of science, my opinion is that it is on it’s way to being a human being just like the egg and the sperm that made it. If science says it is a human being explain why are there no funerals for miscarriage’s? You say you’re not the one that decided this but you are deciding that nature has – it’s not you’re to judge or decide – only for yourself – you cannot tell me or force your belief on me.
Also, there will always be those that abuse everything but as a rule, most women I have known never “wanted” an abortion. It is a sad thing and a last resort for most. That’s what I’ve seen and experienced. It is also a life saver for the woman. I would rather have abortions available to a scared young woman than not. The consequences of an unwanted pregnancy OR a back street abortion can be catastrophic. You need to look at the bigger picture, instead of being so focus on having your will!
DS
And btw, unless your son was born VERY, VERY premature, there is no way he could have been legally aborted two weeks before he was born. Third-trimester abortion is illegal except in medical emergency. It’s a strawman the Right loves to point at, and we’re all aware of that.
Freddy Davis
MB – That is not my opinion of science, that IS the science. You have not mentioned any science at all, ONLY your opinion.
Some people do have funerals for miscarriages, but that actually has nothing to do with whether or not a human being has died. You don’t generally see funerals for abortions either, but a baby has still died. Here is the science (again):
1. A fertilized egg is human (it is not a dog or cat or anything else.).
2. A fertilized egg is living. It is not at a stage of development yet where it can live on its own, but it is alive.
3. A fertilized egg has its own unique DNA – it is a unique individual person (different from both its mom and dad).
What you are trying to argue is not science, but religion. Perhaps your religion doesn’t see human life as sacred, and that’s your business, but biblical faith does.
So you are telling me that most of the nearly 1 million abortions per year that are performed in the US are due to catastrophic emergencies? Yeah, right. I guess it is better to murder the baby than to inconvenience someone.
Freddy Davis
DS – You should find out the facts before you make comments like that. We adopted him in Japan, and the laws are different there. (Oh, and there are several states in the US where there are no limits.)
DS
Excellent example.
1. A human uterine tumor is human. It is not a dog or a cat or anything else.
2. A uterine tumor is living. It is not at a stage of development where it can live on its own, but it metabolizes food into energy and it grows, and is therefore just as alive as a fertilized human egg.
3. A uterine tumor has its own unique DNA. Having mutated to overcome its internal growth limitations, its DNA is no longer identical to that of the host.
Don’t believe me? Check the HELA cells.
DS
Freddy, which states? And BTW, kids get adopted every day in the US. Regardless of where you adopted your child, abortion hasn’t stopped that.
MB
Freddy Davis – You didn’t mention science either, you said “that’s science” I have no science that says a fertilized egg is a living human being. It is a zygote. This is your belief. Fine. But this is also America and until you have more than “that’s nature”, stop trying to impose your beliefs on other people’s lives. We can think for ourselves and live our beliefs within the law.
Why don’t you advocate for vasectomy’s for men until marriage if you’re so concerned – stand up – let’s put responsibility where it belongs.
DS
Freddy, you have now completely abandoned any attempt to refute my actual arguments. I applaud your restraint from Appeal to Authority, but I’m going to have to take your silence to mean I am correct.
Which I knew anyway, but still…
Freddy Davis
DS – That is silly. No tumor, of any kind, is human. The fact that it is in a human does not make it human. Where do you get this stuff.
I looked up the states, you can too.
The fact that kids get adopted every day has absolutely NOTHING to do with the morality of abortion. We are not discussing whether or not abortion has been stopped, or even limited. Focus.
You haven’t given any actual arguments. It is hard to respond to nothing. I would be happy to respond to them if you wish to offer any.
Freddy Davis
MB – What do you mean I didn’t mention science? I listed it out 1, 2, 3. I even addressed your failed attempt at playing a semantical game – which you have done again – without justifying your assertion.
So, I can’t “impose” my beliefs on others (which I actually have not done, nor do I have the power to do), but you are trying to do the very thing you are blasting me for – trying to impose your beliefs (to the total destruction of actual human beings). I guess it is okay for you but not for anyone else.
As for the vasectomy thing, I don’t know why you keep bringing that up after I have addressed it several times already — especially since you haven’t even responded to my previous responses. All you have done is repeat yourself. Geez!
DS
And there you have it, folks. Deny a zealot their Appeal to Authority, and all they have left is pretending you didn’t say anything at all. That, my friends is how you Make a Christian Worldview Practical: Deny that anything that doesn’t jive with your Christian Worldview exists.
Tell Invisible Sky Daddy I said hi.
Freddy Davis
DS – What are you even talking about? You have not made any cogent argument, then you blast me for not responding to it. I have no idea what you want me to respond to and have offered to respond if you ever put out an argument. So far all we get is (silence).
MB
Freddy Davis – Are you having fun yet? LOL! Are there strings or do you do all that on your own? Does your manual start with: if they say “it’s a fetus”, you say “…”? Are you flipping back and forth trying to find out what you say next? You don’t deserve any more of my times.
Freddy Davis
MB – Are you having fun yet? LOL Are there strings or do you do all that on your own? Does your manual start with: If they say “it’s a person,” you say “…?” Are you flipping back and forth trying to find out what to say next? I’ll let you keep trying.
PDH
Freddy Davis – NO ONE is PRO-abortion.
What does that mean? Conception?
If human life, then murder is a capital offense in Florida. The statute provides only two punishments: death or life, with 25 year minimum.
And felony murder for anyone who assisted in any way, the sentence being the same alternatives.
I don’t recall the number of abortions per year. For the sake of rounding, one million. So, one million investigations, including what Trump calls “grabbing pussy”. Jail costs. Jail and prison medical and housing costs. There is no bond nor bail. Trials, paid experts, like psychiatrists. Jury costs. Court security costs. Judicial expenses, including judicial assistants. Defense counsel and various related expenses. Appeals expenses, which are quite expensive. Mitigation costs. Other post-conviction appeals costs. For the defendant, psychiatrist and other costs. The long-term need for psychiatric and counseling expenses for staff. State-sponsored murder for so many women would profoundly affect prison staff. And whatever I’m forgetting.
Is that your goal?
ED
Does this murder statute cover medical malpractice doctors? That would be great!
PDH
ED – Medical malpractice is not, theoretically, intentional.
ED
What if it is?
PDH
Then time to report to law enforcement or prosecutors.
ED
Who prosecutes that? The county or the state?
Freddy Davis
Seriously? You really do want to justify the murder of innocent children based on an argument like that? Using that rationale, you could literally justify any heinous activity in the world – even genocide. Yes, there are plenty of people who are pro-abortion.
RH
Freddy Davis – No one is pro abortion. To say that anyone is is a lie. People are pro choice.
Freddy Davis
RH – Interesting word games. Pro choice means you want to make it okay for people to murder a baby. Pro choice = pro abortion.
RH
Freddy Davis – That’s a false equivalence. So it’s also word games on your part.
Freddy Davis
RH – It is not a false equivalence.
RH
Freddy Davis – Why not?
Freddy Davis
RH – Why is it?
RH
Freddy Davis – Pro- choice literally means to allow people to make a choice. That choice is theirs to make because no one is bound to your moral or ethical code unless they choose to be. That also means that they don’t have to consider a pregnancy a life since conception if they don’t want to. Therefore, it’s not “murdering babies”, and is thus a choice. It’s not up to me or you to determine whether a woman can choose that or not.
AHO
Freddy Davis – I’m for mass vasectomies personally. They are reversible and that gets to the root of the problem. Lets give all child producing men ages 15 and up vasectomies until they are married and when they have a job, pass a drug test, prove they are in a stable monogamous relationship, they can apply to the government to have it reversed. There, problem solved.
Freddy Davis
RH – What about the choice of the one that is up for being murdered?
Freddy Davis
AHO – Or maybe, people should just quit having sex. This idea is no sillier than yours.
MB
Here’s an idea for you, why don’t you advocate for mandatory vasectomy’s for men until married. Y’all are the ones getting these women pregnant – step up take the responsibility for YOUR actions. It is not your place to impose your religion on us – it is your religion – I’ll get my own.
Freddy Davis
MB – If this bothers you so much, perhaps you should be the one advocating for something — like for sex to become illegal. If people wouldn’t have sex, we wouldn’t have to worry about anyone getting vasectomies. Or maybe, instead of forcing men to get vasectomies, you should force women to have hysterotomies. You talk as if women don’t have any part in the sex act. Your argument is not well reasoned. Why should your solution be the one everyone has to go by?
RH
Freddy Davis – If you don’t know you’re alive and are not conscious – you don’t have a choice.
Freddy Davis
RH – So I guess if you are asleep or in a coma it is okay to kill you.
RH
Freddy Davis – Nope. False equivalence. Those aren’t the same thing.
Freddy Davis
RH – Not a false equivalence. You really believe a preborn baby is not a human being?
RH
Freddy Davis – It’s a group of cells. At some point it becomes a human being, but when a sperm and egg join, to you that’s a human being, fully formed, and capable.
CM
Freddy, when you get a uterus then you can have an opinion. Until then your opinion doesn’t count.
Freddy Davis
CM – When you earn the right to pronounce life and death, then you can have an opinion. Until then, your opinion doesn’t count.
RH
Freddy Davis – Do you have the right to pronounce life and death?
AM
Freddy Davis – I’d be interested Freddy: If you were forced (say in a hospital fire) to choose between rescuing an infant in a crib or a tray of a dozen human embryos, which would you pick? And why?
Freddy Davis
RH – What is the intent of that question? It doesn’t make sense. I am not the one advocating for the killing of babies.
Freddy Davis
AM – What kind of weird hypothetical is that?
RH
Freddy Davis – But your point is that to have an opinion to count means that you have to have the right to pronounce life and death. If you can’t pronounce life and death, and neither can CM, then your opinion also does not matter. This simple logical consistency.
AM
Freddy Davis – it’s not a hard question for most people.
Freddy Davis
RH – Did you miss the original point made by CM? You seem to have completely missed the point being addressed.
Freddy Davis
AM – But it is a hypothetical that doesn’t provide for real life options. Perhaps there are other options you have not considered. Answering such a question is a rather meaningless exercise and doesn’t really relate to whether or not a pre-born baby is an actual human being.
RH
Freddy Davis – She said if you don’t have a uterus, your opinion doesn’t count. Your retort was that neither does hers since she can’t pronounce life and death. By that logic, your opinion also doesn’t count because you can’t pronounce life or death.
CM
Freddy Davis – I can and have “pronounced” life. Something you can’t do as a male. That makes me more than qualified to have an opinion.
AM
Freddy Davis – But the point is, yes there is a distinction between pre-born and born, most people understand it, and understand which takes priority when a choice must be made. And there are circumstances where the choice must happen. I know of no one who advocates casual abortions. It’s more often an agonizing, and very personal decision by the mother, made under difficult circumstances. It’s not your call, nor should it be. By your logic, the 12 embryos should be saved, instead of the infant, because more lives are involved.
CH
AM – Well, AM, we’d have to have a trial and determine which are more innocent, the embryos or the birthed baby.
AM
CH – I sense some sarcasm here…??
Freddy Davis
RH – It is not up to me to make that call. God has already revealed that human life is sacred and innocent life is not to be taken. Your reasoning is only valid if you don’t have that view of human life.
Freddy Davis
CM – So have you sentenced a pre-born baby to death? Do you feel you have the right to do that? If so, on what basis?
Freddy Davis
AM – The only distinction has to do with developmental stages. But regardless of that, it is a human being.
Oh yes, massive numbers of people advocate for casual abortions. If the only issues had to do with the exceptional cases everyone keeps throwing around, there would not be the just under a million abortions a year in the US alone.
And don’t go twisting my logic. The hypothetical choice put out there was not real, so neither is your evaluation of my logic.
Freddy Davis
CH – And who gets to be the judge at the trial? People who are all pro abortion?
AM
Freddy Davis – it’s not hypothetical at at all. Trays of fertilized human embryos are discarded every day in IVF clinics, or donated to medical research. Why are conservatives not hyperventilating on Fox over in-vitro fertilization? I think perhaps because the motivations are at least as much based in culture-war considerations as anything else.
Freddy Davis
AM – Actually AM, biblical Christians do speak against the way this is handled. But what news outlet is going to give this any play – including FOX? If you want to see or read discussions on this topic, you are going to have to go to alternative sources.
You know, I understand you having a different point of view and trying to defend it, but I don’t get your attempts to accuse me of nefarious motivations. Do you think you are God and are able to know other people’s hearts? What if what I am saying is actually what I believe? Wow, what a novel thought. You don’t seem to be able to grasp that your beliefs are not held by everyone. Perhaps you should get out more.
CM
Freddy Davis – no. I’ve given birth
AM
Freddy Davis – I don’t think I have questioned the sincerity of your personal beliefs, nor am I unused to people disagreeing with me. That’s why politics is a thing.
Freddy Davis
CM – You don’t though, seem to have any problem with other people killing babies.
Freddy Davis
AM – I’m not talking politics.
RH
Freddy Davis – If it were not up to you to make the call to pronounce life or death, then why use the argument against someone else? How do you know if God chose someone else to make that pronouncement or not?
Also, you have not answered my question regarding why your religion is superior to mine and you have the right to make decisions for other people based on your religion…
PDH
Freddy Davis – EVERYTHING IS POLITICAL.
PDH
Political Paul the Polite Piranha.
Nicknamed in 1980.
ED
Yes his opinion matters. Your uterus doesn’t give you that power over men. Or anybody else. You don’t get to shut Freddy up because you have a uterus.
PDH
It does make a difference in the discussion.
RH
ED – Why does his opinion matter? Does he carry the pregnancy?
Freddy Davis
RH – Your argument makes no sense at all. I am not calling for anyone’s death – the opposite, in fact. God has not chosen anyone to take innocent human life. Your premise is simply false.
Freddy Davis
PDH – No, everything is not political!
Freddy Davis
PDH – It doesn’t make a difference in the discussion. I don’t care what kind of plumbing someone has, they do not have the right to take innocent human life. If someone is going to participate in the activity that causes pregnancy, they should be prepared to deal with the results. Killing people our of convenience is not a legitimate option.
RH
Freddy Davis – I think you are getting lost in this discussion. And you are not answering my questions.
RH
Freddy Davis – Also – what argument do you think I’m making?
Freddy Davis
RH – You have not made an argument. I don’t recall you mentioning what your religion is, so I have not commented on it.
You are the one who seems to have gotten lost in the discussion. You don’t seem to have read the previous posts related to what I was commenting on.
RH
Freddy Davis – It doesn’t matter what my religion is. Your implicit assumption is that your religion is superior and that as a result, you get to define morality and ethics. I’ve made arguments, but you don’t respond to them. I’m piercing holes in your argument. Some of them are wide enough to drive a truck through. In addition, I’ve asked you several questions which you continue to not answer. I think you need to ask yourself if you’re being honest in the way you’re going about creating fog where there is none.
Freddy Davis
RH – Actually, it does matter what your religion is because all of your arguments are based upon it. And is not the implicit assumption of your argumentation that your religion is superior and that as a result YOU get to define morality and ethics? I guess it only goes one way, huh?
Somehow I seem to have missed the arguments you have made that you don’t think I have responded to. I honestly try to respond to all of them that I possibly can. So, if you think I have missed something, say it again and I will address it. So far, I have not perceived a single argument you have made that has “pierced a hole” in anything I have said, but you can keep trying – or are you going to continue to ignore my repeated efforts to get you to clarify as a way of not being honest and creating a fog?
RH
Freddy Davis – No, it doesn’t matter what my religion is, because I’m not trying to force anyone else to live by my morals, ethics, values, or religion. But you are. Do you think we should live in a theocracy? One that goes by your values, ethics, morals, and religion?
Not everyone defines life as “beginning at conception”. It’s implicit in my argument that a question such as this belongs on a personal level, and not at an institutional or government level. It has nothing to do with religion. In fact, religion is not the only source of ethics, values, and morals. Ample evidence exists to demonstrate this.
I find it interesting that you’re trying to turn these arguments I’m making back around on me. I don’t define ethics and morals for anyone but me. Besides, if your goal is to end abortion, you might consider looking at the science that proves that sex education reduces teen sex and the incidence of abortion. In fact, there are many different ways to reduce abortion, but you’ll never completely end it. Do you support the various things that are shown to reduce abortion?
Freddy Davis
RH – Actually, yes it does matter what your religion is. And yes, you are trying to force everyone else to live by your morals, ethics, values, and religion. By telling me my beliefs are wrong, you are asserting that your beliefs are right, and that everyone must live by them. Contrary to your assertion, you don’t define ethics and morals only for yourself.
Perhaps you still don’t realize that there is no such thing as a moral, ethical, value, and religious vacuum. Some system exists to the exclusion of others when it comes to the environment that governs a society. So, if you want to argue for yours, go for it – but at least become aware of what it is and the effect it has on everyone else.
Of course not everyone defines life as beginning at conception. If they did, we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion. The question is, are the beliefs your argument is based upon true and right? Your attempt to deflect from the real issue by trying to interject useless suggestions for reducing abortions is simply not a moral or ethical position. Are you saying that according to your moral, ethical, and religious belief, it is okay to kill babies? It appears that you have valued the personal preferences of certain people above the very life of others. Personally, I don’t see that.
RH
Freddy Davis – I haven’t said your beliefs are wrong. I would like to know whether you think we should live in a theocracy. You haven’t said.
Freddy Davis
RH – Of course not. I have no idea why you would even ask a question like that.
RH
Freddy Davis – Do you want to force anyone to live by your morals, ethics, values, or religion?
Freddy Davis
RH – Force? Not quite sure what you mean by that. Every society has a foundational belief system that informs its approach to morals, ethics, and values. If you think the biblical values that American society was founded upon are wrong or bad, what do you propose replacing them with? Are you saying honesty, integrity, justice, truth, individual liberty, personal responsibility, value of human life, rule of law, and the other values of America’s founding should be replaced by some other set of values? What values do you think should be forced on people?
RH
Freddy Davis – How far would you go to end abortion? What means would you use to end abortion if it were just up to you?
Freddy Davis
RH – I have responded to you several times and you have so far refused to respond to my comments or answer the questions I have asked. Seems you are now just trolling.
RH
Freddy Davis – I’m not trolling you. I’m also not answering questions because you keep turning my questions to you around to me, but you’re not answering my questions.
Freddy Davis
RH – I’m sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. If you are not willing to enter the conversation, you are not worth talking to. I have answered your questions, and you bet I am turning your questions around on you. I am doing that because the presuppositions you are working from expose the gross weaknesses in your questions. If you are unwilling to justify your questions, you are nothing but a troll.
RH
Freddy Davis – I am absolutely in this conversation. If the presuppositions I am working from expose gross weaknesses in my questions, what are they?
Freddy Davis
RH – You answer my questions and we will talk. Until you do, this is not a conversation.
RH
Freddy Davis – This conversation is not about me, and you’re trying to make it that way. This conversation is about your positions, and your opposition to abortion, as well as the lengths you would go to to end it.
DC
Ridiculous argument. Why when a pregnant woman is murdered, is it always categorized as a double murder? Pro choice is pro abortion. You can try and make yourself feel better anyway you want to, it doesn’t change the fact that you are going to kill a human being that will be viable if you allow it the time. Also , it is definitely murder to abort a fetus that can live independently outside of the womb at the time of the abortion. Don’t see how anyone could say different, but you folks in the party of death will give it a try…
CH
DC – When I talk abortion, I am talking the first two-three months, when it’s not formed, nor capable of existing on it’s own. An egg or a sperm are also capable of becoming a human. Just because it’s been recently fertilized, does not yet make it a human being. The potential is always there. Just because it can, does not necessitate that it must. I believe in souls and spirits that exist before and after life and death on earth. When you abort in the beginning stages, you are sending the potential back to it’s spirit form. And, as we have said to you pro-lifers….I’ll bet 3/4 of you own guns and would think it was your right to shoot a grown human being. And I bet you revere our soldiers, whose primary job is learning how to kill “enemies.” If it’s a sin against God, then those who choose abortion will answer to their God. Not to you. You don’t get to make the definitions on God’s behalf.
RH
DC – Why do you get to be the one to decide if it’s murder or not?
Freddy Davis
CH – Interesting theory. Where do you get those beliefs from? Did you just make them up?
CH
Freddy Davis – Where do you get your beliefs? Someone tells you how to think and you go along with it?
CH
https://www.fastcompany.com/…/why-your-brain-clings-to…
Why Your Brain Clings To False Beliefs (Even When It Knows Better)
FASTCOMPANY.COM
MB
DC – Another man, who probably doesn’t have a vasectomy’s judging women for wanting to have dominion over their bodies. The Democrats didn’t invent abortion and if you want to point a finger why not point at the repubs that want to do away with organizations that actually provide guidance and birth control to women helping to avoid pregnancy and abortion all together. You have a very self-serving view – try looking outside of yourself.
Freddy Davis
CH – You might find this an interesting article and it seems somewhat reasonable (all except for the part that assumes naturalistic evolution accounts for it). https://www.fastcompany.com/…/why-your-brain-clings-to…
Why Your Brain Clings To False Beliefs (Even When It Knows Better)
FASTCOMPANY.COM
BBJ
Hey Freddy and whoever else: If you are against women having abortion rights (no one is “pro” abortion, btw), you could prevent many, many more abortions by mandating vasectomies for young men, and letting them reverse them when they are in proven, committed relationships. What’s that you say? Crickets …
Freddy Davis
BBJ – Or, you could mandate hysterectomies for all women and eliminate the problem altogether. But I guess my thought is a silly as yours.
BBJ
Why is it silly? Vasectomies are reversible. I guess it depends on … whether you’re trying to regulate women.
Freddy Davis
BBJ – Either that maybe I really believe that abortion is the murder of an innocent human being. Understand, I am not trying to prevent “many more” abortions, but the murder of innocent human beings. Do you really believe it is okay to murder babies?
Or maybe it would be better just to ban sex and any approach to procreation altogether. That way all of these problems just go away.
BBJ
To me it’s simple. You say you are against abortions. I’ve proposed a solution that would mostly eliminate the need for them. Why are you opposed to that solution? Do you really want to “save babies,” or just to regulate women’s bodies?
BBJ
Of course, many studies show that a better economic climate, sex education and access to birth control also drastically decrease the number of abortions. Again, what is your ultimate goal here, Freddy? Telling women what to do with their bodies, or preventing abortions? Because if it’s the latter, there are many more logical solutions than letting politicians rather than women and their doctors decide these matters.
Freddy Davis
BBJ – So no one can tell you what to do with your body, but it is okay for you to kill someone else’s body? What makes that right?
I am not looking to decrease abortions, I am looking to end the genocide. I also proposed a couple of solutions but you seem to have totally ignored those.
AHO
Freddy Davis – herein lies the conundrum, right? Thats the precise point we are making. When we suggest vasectomies, your instinct says that is control over my body…thats the point we are trying to make to you.
Freddy Davis
AHO – There is an old saying that goes: Your rights end where my nose begins. We are not talking control over someone’s body, we are talking about the slaughter of innocent human life. You can have all the control over your own life that you want (including the option to participate or not participate in activities that produce babies). However, when you make one, it is not just about you anymore.
RH
Freddy Davis – But other people don’t consider it a human life until it reaches a certain age, such as the Jews in the Bible who didn’t count babies as babies until 1 month old.
RH
Freddy Davis – Is it only you who gets to decide?
Freddy Davis
RH – I think I have answered that retort several times. Perhaps if you read the string this kind of repetition would not be necessary.
RH
Freddy Davis – You haven’t answered it. That’s why I keep asking. You generally give a non-answer, and it usually has a lot of words in it, but it doesn’t actually give an answer.
Freddy Davis
RH – I have answered it with other people. Read the string.
JD
I’m so sorry I got trapped into reading this thread.
HCM
oh yay! Freddy’s back to proselytize his own beliefs as facts. It’d be cool if people like Rev. Davis would shut the f__k up and realize his opinion on women’s rights isn’t important. Religious rights have no bearing on health and human services.
Also, if God really existed why would he have created so many atheists?
Freddy Davis
HCM – So I guess it is okay for you to spout off your beliefs, but anyone who disagrees with you has to shut up? Is that the way you roll? I guess you don’t realize that your Atheism is actually a faith point of view and that you are trying to proselytize people to it using bullying tactics and vulgarity. It is actually not a very good technique.
And … God didn’t create Atheists. You don’t really believe, do you, that God caused you not to believe in God? Surely you have better reasoning than that.
HCM
Freddy Davis – did you really just ask me if I believe that it was God that caused me not to believe in God. What are they putting in your tea over there at the Monastery?
Freddy Davis
HCM – You are the one who proposed the idea. I was responding to you.
The value of human life is a bedrock principle that emerges out of a biblical worldview, and when I have an opportunity I will express the biblical worldview. I do this for a couple of important reasons.
First, I want the non-Christians that I engage to understand a biblical worldview perspective. They will have a very difficult time responding to the gospel message if they don’t understand biblical worldview concepts.
A second reason I do it is for all of the people who read the conversation. It is my hope and prayer that those who are not Christians will open themselves up to a biblical point of view, and that those who are Christians will be informed and emboldened to be able to, themselves, share the message when they have an opportunity.
Finally, I try to use such opportunities to actually share the gospel message to give people an opportunity to receive Christ into their own lives. Only changed hearts can generate changed minds in order to save the innocent lives that might be killed by abortion.
It is my hope and prayer that by reading this conversation, you will be strengthened in your faith and enabled to be a more effective witness for Jesus Christ.
© 2021 Freddy Davis
Gee, why is it that no one cares about just how horrifying childbirth can be?
I’ve never seen such a medical issue ignored so much before.
That is a very strange comment. Why do you characterize childbirth as horrifying? Every single person who has ever existed in the world (with the exception of Adam and Eve) has entered the world through the process of childbirth. It is the normal way reality works. What is your point?