This article is the fourth and final part of a conversation I had with Atheists on YouTube. I recently posted a video on YouTube called Now Christians are Haters? This one was about how the new Speaker of the House of Representatives, Mike Johnson, was attacked by those on the political left because of his Christian beliefs. You can view the video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgFnMUnuMN0&lc=UgwUKe2E-JOpq_Qjf4B4AaABAg.A0emz0XzEG7A0jyM_FSviv. These videos are produced as a resource for Christians who are interested in the work of MarketFaith Ministries, but occasionally people who disagree with me will see one of these and start a discussion. That was the origin of this discussion.
In case you missed the previous installments and want to catch up before you jump into the middle is this, parts one through three of this conversation can be viewed at:
http://www.marketfaith.org/2024/03/youtube-discussion-with-atheists-1/
http://www.marketfaith.org/2024/03/youtube-discussion-with-atheists-2/
http://www.marketfaith.org/2024/03/youtube-discussion-with-atheists-3/
[Note: The names have been changed, except for my own, so that those I was interacting with cannot be personally identified. Also, these conversations are copied exactly as they were posted without making grammatical, spelling, punctuation, or any other changes except where it was absolutely necessary to make it clear.]
SW
freddydavis, Congratulations on all the degrees and time you’ve spent. A pity it is not sufficient to prevent you from misrepresenting the bible.
Freddy Davis
SW, Oh? So where did you get your expertise? I take it you have taken dozens of hours of formal study, you teach it in some higher education institution, and write about it prolifically? Give me your background that makes you an expert. Maybe I should take one of your classes or read one of your books. I need you to back up your claim that I am misrepresenting the Bible.
Freddy Davis
SW, And BTW, you haven’t answered my four questions.
SW
freddydavis, The bible does not say that life begins at conception. It says nothing explicitly at all about abortions. The one reference in the bible that could come close to addressing abortions anywhere near directly, is basically how to perform it in the case of infidelity.
The context of the intent and meaning of the original authors does not seem at all to support your claim of life beginning before birth. Just because they were a bit ignorant, does not justify rewriting their words.
To be fair, we are also playing with words where definitions are not always simple. If you want to define a blastocyst as a living human, I think that definition would end up so broad as to also define a single skin cell in my pinky, as a living human. Your claim about what science says is less credible than the biblical one.
I can understand how modern Christians understand things differently, and that they have more and better information at their disposal. So perhaps they desire to reinterpret the concepts to harmonize it in the way they prefer.
In short, anti abortion doctrine is read into the bible. It is not from the bible. Lets not get into how much could be read into the bible.
While I have no inclination to be, or call myself a teacher, I also recognize that any teacher worth their salt is willing to learn at any opportunity. So throwing around credentials instead of evidence, is not in your favor.
SW
freddydavis, You are correct, I have ceased answering your questions. Your responses to them, have not been enlightening, or indicative that you are engaging in good faith, and thus I see little point.
Freddy Davis
SW, Once again, you are totally missing the point. The principle of the value of human life is solidly found in Scripture, as is the principle of not allowing murder (the unjust taking of innocent life). The Bible also doesn’t use the word geronticide or doctor assisted suicide either, but they are clearly contrary to the moral values God has revealed in the Bible.
As far as science, a preborn child is a living being. A preborn child is a unique human being with its own DNA. Comparing that to a skin cell is quite a stretch. The fact that a preborn is dependent at that stage of life on its mother says nothing about the value of that life. Your attempt to justify abortion by using the Bible is a total failure. Your interpretive methodology is simply faulty. If anyone is trying to read something into the Bible, it is you (as well as reading something out of it).
Oh, so you are calling my ability to do proper biblical interpretation into question without having ANY training at all in that area? Really? And I am the one who is not willing to learn? I guess if you decree something it is the truth whether you know anything about it or not.
Ceased answering my questions? You realize those were not questions about you, right? They were about your beliefs. I seriously would like to hear your answers. But we both know they are unanswerable based on Naturalism. What they do show, though, is that your beliefs are just that – religious beliefs. You see, your entire naturalistic worldview is a religious point of view that cannot even justify itself by its own presuppositions. You believe it by faith. What you are doing here is not simply dissing Christianity, you are trying to prove your faith is true and mine is false. I suppose simply copping out is the easy way out.
You would really do better beginning a “genuine, honest, and in-depth” investigation into the Christian faith in the same way I have done with naturalistic Atheism. Ultimately, that is where you will find truth that you can build a life on.
SW
freddydavis, The value of human life in scripture, seems at bargain discount when I read the old testament. I suppose you can justify all the baby smashing to not be murder, by simply defining any killing God does, to not be murder. But the valuing life part…is pretty weak.
Death penalties for breaking the sabbath, or children not honoring their parents. Are not currently followed thankfully.
But explain to me how that is valuing life. Preferably without ignoring large swaths of the bible.
You can’t have an unchanging God, and ignore much what he did in the old testament.
And again, you utterly failed to address what I said. The bible does not say a fetus is alive. The valuation of life is not even relevant to what you are claiming.
Freddy Davis
SW, I have answered all of your questions up until now, even your questions about abortion. You obviously don’t like all of my answers, but I have answered them. Even with that, you dispute me as if you actually had some understanding of the Bible. Your entire approach to interpretation is just wrong. Reread what I have written.
That said, I will be happy to answer this one, too – but not until you answer mine. You are attacking me based on beliefs that you have not supported, and until you can show me you have a reasonable basis for even asking the questions, I will wait. Time to pony up. Justify your naturalistic beliefs.
SW
freddydavis, My naturalistic belief, is that nature exists, because I, and others around me, observe it. If anything that is not observable exists, I would need good reasons to justify denying evidence. And so far, the reasons I have gotten from apologists, are worse than blind faith.
Freddy Davis
SW, Yet you believe naturalistic philosophy by blind faith. Interesting. The fact that you observe things around you has no relationship to the foundational worldview beliefs you hold concerning the nature of that reality. Guess what, I observe things around me, too. But the fact is, there are MANY things that are not observable that you also believe, and you believe them by blind faith. I have no idea what apologists you are referring to, but based on the conversation we have had, you simply reject, out of hand, everything that does not comport with naturalistic worldview beliefs – even though you can’t justify your beliefs using your own requirements. Interesting, indeed.
As I have said before, there is a lot of evidence for the existence of God and the truth of biblical beliefs. There is logical, empirical, and experiential evidence. I have shared all of these with you before. Here’s the deal: We, as human beings are separated from God because of our sin – not just the sinful acts we do, but because it is a part of our very nature. Because of that, we are separated from Him, and to remedy that, we must somehow get rid of it. God loves us and devised a way to scrub us clean. He did it by coming to earth as a human person (Jesus Christ), living a morally perfect life to qualify as a substitutionary sacrifice for mankind, then sacrificing Himself by His death on a Roman cross. He then demonstrated that He had the power and authority to do that by raising Himself from the dead. But He doesn’t force us, as individuals, to accept His sacrifice. Every person has to do that for themself. Those who do, have their sin forgiven and enter into an eternal relationship with Him. Those who choose not to, remain separated from Him. Those who die in that condition, by their own choice, spend their eternity separated from Him. You have that choice for yourself. My prayer is that one day you will make the right one.
SW
freddydavis, I literally and rather simplistically said that I need evidence, or good reason to believe things, and you describe this as blind faith? Do you even understand how words work anymore?
That you find your delusions interesting, I suppose is no surprise.
I earlier took your word that you had multiple degrees, and taught classes. But at this point, such claims would need verification.
Freddy Davis
SW, Seriously? Do you even know what the word “evidence” means? I listed three kinds of evidence that I have shared with you on multiple occasions (and didn’t even include “historical,” which is a fourth kind), that you have simply dismissed out of hand without giving any reason for doing so. Do you have a different, or some very specific, meaning for that word that you are not sharing?
And did you actually read what I wrote? I never described evidence as blind faith. What I described as blind faith is what you believe based on your naturalistic explanations that have absolutely NO evidence for them at all. For Naturalism to be true, you have to answer the four questions I gave you (which you continue to ignore), and back them up with empirical proof. Your naturalistic worldview requires that all of them be true, AND that they be demonstrable based on empirical science. You can’t do that, so your entire belief system is a product of your faith in naturalistic philosophy. Provide the kind of evidence for your beliefs that you are demanding of me. Anything less than that is highly hypocritical. You obviously don’t need evidence to believe things (at least the kind of evidence you are demanding of me) or you couldn’t believe your own beliefs. And you call my beliefs delusional. SMH
Wrap Up
As with most of the discussions I have in this format, there came a time when the other person simply had no way to continue with any kind of rational argument, so they just quit the conversation without even saying good bye. It is always unfortunate when this occurs, but it is the rare person who is willing to actually admit that their beliefs don’t hold up to scrutiny. It is my prayer that the conversation we had will compel them to dig more deeply into their beliefs, and ultimately realize that what the Bible teaches about God, man, and salvation actually does represent reality.
As you have had the opportunity to read this conversation, it is also my prayer that you, yourself, were blessed, and that you gained personal strength and insight from it. In part one of this series, I listed for you what I hoped you would get out of this.
1. You will gain increased confidence in your own Christian faith,
2. You will gain insights about how to deal with people who oppose your faith,
3. You will come to grasp more deeply the way hardcore Atheists think about faith matters so you can better understand them when you engage.
It is my hope and prayer that this conversation has been helpful to you in that way.
[Final Note: Just as a reminder, MarketFaith Ministries is a worldview discipleship ministry, and it is our purpose to equip the body of Christ to become ever more effective in expressing the truth of the gospel in our increasingly anti-Christian world. We would love to share this equipping ministry with your church or Christian organization. Contact us at info@marketfaith.org and let’s explore the possibilities.]
© 2024 Freddy Davis