Recently a friend of mine, who is a pastor, posted the meme above on Facebook containing a quote from a Catholic priest named Richard Rohr. It needs to be understood that Rohr is not a traditional Catholic priest and does not hold to traditional Roman Catholic theology. In fact, he is a social justice warrior, and groups he has been associated with have actually been condemned by the Vatican. He is a strong advocate for the homosexual movement and believes there is a “third way” to believe between traditional orthodoxy and heresy.
When I read the meme above, I recognized immediately that it promoted a belief about salvation that does not reflect biblical Christianity, so I made a comment. When I did, this started quite the conversation (that you can read below).
My reason for posting this conversation is that biblical Christians need to realize that there are other versions of Christianity out there that are not genuine Christianity. You very likely have friends who claim to be Christians and who are members of “Christian” denominations that are theologically liberal. Sadly, the kind of “Christian” theology promoted by these individuals and churches is not biblical Christianity. It is a non-Christian faith masquerading as Christianity. It is my hope that by reading this conversation, you will gain a deeper understanding as to how you can interact with those you know who think they are Christian, but who need the Lord.
Note: I have removed the actual names of the participants in the conversation (except my own) to protect the privacy of those involved. Also, there are several strings embedded in the overall conversation. I have identified new strings inserting a line in those places.
Freddy Davis
Christianity is a personal relationship with God by faith in Jesus Christ. The lifestyle of a Christian emerges out of the relationship. Any attempt to make works, of any kind, the central element of the Christian faith is heresy.
LBH
Early Christians called it The Way. I can’t understand a reactionary dismissal of such a straitforward statement of faith
Freddy Davis
My statement is not reactionary, it is a straightforward evaluation of what is actually in his text. Christianity is not a lifestyle, it is a relationship with God. The lifestyle is an expression of the relationship, not the faith itself. Then, he summarily dismisses the means for establishing the relationship while touting works as the central core of the faith. What he expressed is not biblical Christianity, it is a religion of works.
LBH
No, it’s not. Do not evaluate Rohr on one FB meme.
Freddy Davis
Not doing that in any respect. Rohr is not even an orthodox Catholic, and his theology is nowhere near what the Bible teaches. We can do a more specific evaluation of Rhor’s theology if you like, but you need to realize that an evaluation based on biblical theology would make him look even worse than what is in the meme. I responded to the meme because that is what was posted, but his teachings about other things take him well outside of the realm of Christianity. Are you aware that some of the major influences in his life were Buddhism, Hinduism, Carl Jung, Spiral Dynamics, and Integral Theory? His theology is hybridized using all kinds of beliefs that are contrary to biblical teachings.
LBH
Oh, please. Do you know how narrow that sounds?
Freddy Davis
Well, if you believe biblical theology is narrow …. I happen to believe that what the Bible teaches is objectively true. Rhor’s teachings come nowhere near that. What he is asserting is not Christianity, it is a hybrid of Naturalism and various pantheistic teachings.
LBH
I shared something of depth. I wasn’t looking for an argument
Freddy Davis
Wasn’t trying to argue. Just pointing out that what was posted in the meme was not an expression of the Christian faith. I think biblical teaching contains much more depth than anything Rhor teaches.
LBH
The umbrella is big enough for all seekers of truth
Freddy Davis
Actually, the way is narrow.
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MH
It may just be a commentary on how unchristian so many “Christians “ act. I’ve actually quit saying I am a Christian but a follower of Christ.
Freddy Davis
There is that; and so many people who claim the title Christian who follow beliefs that are contrary to what is taught in the Bible.
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LH
Way to go! Must be on the right track morally if a Christian calls you a heretic.
Freddy Davis
Actually, I did not call her a heretic. Speaking of Rhor’s comment, I said any attempt to make salvation a product of works is heresy. Surely you don’t believe in salvation by works.
LH
One who speaks heresy is a heretic though right? There is someone else who was frequently said to speak heresy, though most stories about Jesus are just hearsay. And you’re right about one thing: I don’t believe in salvation by works. But that statement is also true without the ‘by works’ part.
Freddy Davis
The determination for what is heresy and what is not has nothing to do with what someone calls someone else. The bottom line authority for determining that is Scripture. A person’s words and comments can legitimately be compared to that. Rhom’s statement does not comport with the teachings of the Bible. He is advocating salvation by works.
LH
Based soley on the meme and using some of your language, I would interpret what Rhom is saying to mean that unless one’s salvation is demonstrated through their works, then their salvation was a hollow one. Someone who believes they have a personal relationship with Jesus and yet acts with cruelty was never actually saved at all and merely decieving themselves and those around them. You can’t cease to exist in the real world just because you believe you’ve achieved salvation.
Freddy Davis
I agree completely with your theological statement, that one’s salvation is necessarily demonstrated by the way they live life. However, that is not what Rhor is advocating. You might want to reread the meme, then do a little study about what Rhor actually believes.
LBH
Freddy, you seem very interested in Rohr. LH’s post is a pretty accurate summary
Freddy Davis
I’m not really interested in Rhor at all. However, since it was his quote you put up, that is what I responded to. I think I responded pretty precisely to LH’s post.
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LG
Freddy, what, then, do you make of Matt 25:31-46? “31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Freddy Davis
I’m not sure what you are asking. On what basis do you think he will separate the sheep from the goats? Surely you are not suggesting that salvation is based on works.
LG
I’m not suggesting it. Jesus is (not very subtly) stating it pretty clearly.
Freddy Davis
Jesus said no such thing. If you are suggesting that this passage is teaching salvation by works you are sadly mistaken. There is a massive difference between a person doing works as an expression of his or her salvation, and works being the source of salvation. Jesus’ comments about doing good works is his explanation about how people can be identified on one side or the other, not a prescription for how one can be saved. Paul wrote the entire book of Galatians to refute that heresy, and the concept of salvation by faith is the central theme of the entire New Testament.
LG
Jesus would be horrified by the narrow focus on salvation by some of his adherents! What a self-serving interpretation of the Gospel it is to suggest that God sent His Son to give you, Freddy Davis, the keys to heaven! He did not come from God to show you the pathway to your salvation. He came from God to show you God’s expectations of you. I agree with you that when you get that message, you cannot do other than to follow Him–which is the clear evidence that many who call themselves “Christians” have not yet gotten that message–because they are NOT following Him.
Freddy Davis
Actually, Jesus was very specific that the road to salvation is narrow. Do you really believe that Jesus’ death on the cross was not an atoning sacrifice for the sins of man? You certainly are not implying a universalist doctrine, are you? Do you really believe that Christ’s atoning sacrifice applies to people who never enter into a personal relationship with him?
LG
How do you define “a personal relationship” with Jesus?
Freddy Davis
Jesus is an objectively real person who can be known in an objectively real personal relationship. A personal relationship is personal interaction between two objectively real persons. I answered your question, but I do not have confidence that the question you asked is the one you were wanting to ask. You asked for a definition, but were you really wanting to know how it happens?
LG
How do you have “an objectively real personal relationship” with someone you have never physically met?
LBH
Education should free us from a narrow, insular perspective and lead us into being broader thought and more a gracious, inclusive person, ahhh “liberal”! If that education only reenforces our preconceptions, it is worthless.
Freddy Davis
Even human beings are spiritual beings – only we are housed in physical bodies. The relationship we have with other persons is not based on physicalness, it is a spirit to spirit connection. Being a creature made in God’s image does not mean God is a physical creature, it means we are spiritual creatures. We can connect person to person with God. That is the entire focus of the Bible, and it is clarified more precisely in the New Testament. That is the very foundation of biblical theology.
Freddy Davis
LBH, I am not sure what you even mean saying, “Education should free us from a narrow, insular perspective….” You may not realize it, but what you have just proposed is also a very narrow, insular perspective. Your “broadness of thought” is only broad in the direction you deem to be correct. You have proposed a narrow perspective by eliminating anyone who does not agree with you. So, what we are left with is the pursuit of what is actual truth. The saying of Rhor, in the meme, is not representative of biblical theology. Now, if people wish to follow his beliefs, that is their business, but it is not Christianity.
At this point, there were no other responses and the conversation ended. Actually, that is typically the way these things do end. When people come to a place where they are not able to further an untrue narrative, they usually quit the conversation.
The point here, though, is that there truly are many people who believe a form of Christianity that is not actually Christianity. These are people who, while they honestly believe they are Christians, they are not. They believe a doctrine that does not reflect biblical Christianity.
As believers in Christ, we need to first be aware of these false beliefs. But mere awareness is not enough. We need to also know the tenets of these beliefs and why they are not true. It is only then that we are in a position to share with them the actual truth of the gospel message.
© 2019 Freddy Davis